Catholic Faith Defender

JOHN. 8:32 “et cognoscetis veritatem et veritas liberabit vos”

Tanong Galing sa Member ng PMCC 4thwatch (Henry Arganda )

Posted by catholicfaithdefender on November 25, 2008

Author : henry arganda (IP: 64.228.73.5 , bas2-windsor12-1088702725.dsl.bell.ca)

E-mail : henri_4w@yahoo.ca

URL : http://www.pmcc4thwatch.com

Whois : http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=64.228.73.5

Comment:

pag aralan nyo ito rc faith defenders para hindi kayo matuloy sa impiyerno..hindi sa pamamagitan ng succession ang general na patakaran ng Dios..tanungin natin si pedro mismo kung sa pamamagitan ng pag halili ng katungkulan basahin nyo acts 2.38-39 –tatawagin maging ilan man ..pag tinawag ibibigay ang kaloob ng Holy spirit..isa sa kaloob ng Holy spirit ay pagka apostol efeso 4:11..kaya sabi ni pablo sa roma 1:1 ay “si pablo na tinawag na maging apostol”pangutana..sinabi ba ni pablo na successor ako ni kulas???hindi..pagisipan nyong mabuti..ang papa sa roma hindi nya sinabing tinawag sya alam nyo na kung papaano nagiging papa diba??? Usurpation of authority yang ginawa nyo or nya..kami ang may buhay na apostol na tinawag ..patunayan nyo ayun sa biblia na ang Dios hindi na tatawag o magsusugo asa ang verse??? kami may patunay lucas 11:49..kaya kami ang nasa tunay na iglesia.

ang apostolic succession ay totoo lang kay judas at kay mattias sa acts 1.22-26,si judas kaya may successor dahil sya ay inihula sa lumang tipan (verse 20..pangutana si pedro ba inihula na may kukuha ng kanyang katungkulan..asa ang versikulo?tubaga ninyo..next question?kung matuod na kihanglan gayud na dunay mupuli pag mamatay ang apostol kinsang napatay na apostol ang gipulihan ni pablo?hulaton ko ang tubag nyo???at dapat tanan na apostol karon naa pa asa man o kinsa man ang nagpuli kay mateo?tomas katong tanan na apostol asa man sila ???isa lang naman ang papa karon sila kadto damo man.ayaw kamo magsulti na lahi ang pagkaapostol ni pedro sa tanan..pareho lang sila (gal2.9.)kaya yang apostolic succession nyo ay hindi tunay..sorry to say imitation lang yan ..catholic defenders !!!hulaton ko ang tubag nyo.

-SINAGUTAN NI

Bro. G-one T. Paisones

Dear Brother Henry Arganda,

Magandang araw sa iyo, tungkol sa mga katanungan, objection at accusation mo hingil sa aming mga Catholic Faith Defender tungkol sa Apostolic Succession ay lubos naming ikinagagalak. Sasagutin po natin ponto-e-ponto ang mga nasambit mo sa itaas:

Sabi mo “pag aralan nyo ito rc faith defenders para hindi kayo matuloy sa impiyerno” Patawarin ninyo po ako brother Henry dahil ang pahayag po ninyo ay isang illogical statement na tinatawag na Fallacy of Presumption (‘Assumptio non Probata’ pa po itong pahayag mo na kaming mga Catholic Faith Defenders ay impiyerno na). At kung gusto mo ng isang maka Kristianong discussion hingil sa mga accusation mo laban sa aming mga Catholic Faith Defenders, kahit sa ano mang oras at kahit sa ano mang panahon ay handa po kaming ipagtangol ang Doctrina ng Santa Iglesia Catolica sa mga taong naninira at kumukotya sa Aral nito. I want to repeat again that we Catholic Faith Defenders are always ready in defending the Catholic Truth against its enemies in spiritual means.

Sa pahayag mo na “hindi sa pamamagitan ng succession ang general na patakaran ng Dios… Tanungin natin si pedro mismo kung sa pamamagitan ng pag halili ng katungkulan basahin nyo acts 2.38-39 –tatawagin maging ilan man ..pag tinawag ibibigay ang kaloob ng Holy spirit..isa sa kaloob ng Holy spirit ay pagka apostol efeso 4:11” Itoy hindi ko gaanong naiintindihan; ang ibig mo bang sabihin kapatid sa topic mo ay SUCCESSION versus APOSTOL NA TINAWAG? Kung ganon man ang ibig mong sabihin na SUCCESSION versus APOSTOL NA TINAWAG narito ang mga aral ng Santa Iglesia Catolica hingil sa Apostolic Succession at Apostol na Tinawag, na matatagpuan rin sa Biblia:

Apostolic Succession

My Catholic Faith (3rd Edition Page 97) “Did Christ intend that this power should be exercise by Apostles alone? –No, Christ intended this power should be exercise also by their successors. (Lul 10:16 “He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.”) (John 21:15-17; Luke 22:31-32; Mat. 16:18-19; Mat. 28:19-20)—Pakakatandaan natin na si Cristo ay nagtatag ng Iglesia upang maging tagapangalaga ng mga tupa nito, at nag talaga rin si Cristo nang tagapagbantay ng Tupa (Iglesia) na hahalili sa Kanya ((John 21:15-17; Luke 22:31-32) at itoy sasamahan Nya (Cristo) hanggang sa katapusan ng sanlibutan (Mat. 28:20) at bibigyan Nya ito ng patnubay(Juan. 14:16-17) at ang patnubay, ang Espiritu Santo na magtuturo sa iglisya ng lahat ng bagay at magpapaalala ng lahat ng sinabi ni Cristo (Juan. 14:26). Sa mga nabanggit natin sa itaas, kahit na grade 1 pa ay makaka conclude na ang leader (Bishop, elder, deacon) Iglesiang itinatag ni Cristo ay may SUCCESSOR sapagkat ang kanyang mga tupa; mula nang maitatag at maibuklod Niya ang mga ito noong una at magmahanggang sa ngayon ay narito pa sa sanlibutan—Kaya may bantay parin sa mga tupa hanggang ngayon.

Apostol na Tinawag

Catholic Catechism (Revised Edition) By: Fr. M. Gusman #142 “Christ, as Head of his Church, gave the power to teach, to sanctify, and to rule the members of the church in His name to the Apostles, the first Bishop of the Church. (Act 1:20; Mat 16:18; Mat 28:19-20, Mat 10:2-5)

My Catholic Faith (3rd Edition Page 97) “The Apostles: the first Bishop of the Church.”

Sa nasambit natin sa itaas dapat pakakatandaan natin na malinaw na turo ng Santa Iglesia Catolica na may kahalili ang mga Apostol—ito ay ang mga Obispo. Sapanahon natin ngayon at hanggang kataposan ng mundo may mga apostol (Obispo)- na tinatawag ang Dios sa pamamagitan ng pag ordina o ang pagpatong ng kamay. Samakatuwid baga’y ang mga humalili sa mga Apostol at bagong mga opisina (New offices of the Church) ng Iglesia ay ang mga Apostol na Tinawag ng Dios. Narito ang ating mga karagdagang ebidensya:

Act 1:22 (KJV1611) Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Gawa 13:3 (Magandang Balita Biblia) “Pagkatapos nilang mag-ayuno at manalangin, ipinatong nila sa dalawa ang kanilang kamay at sila’y pinayaon.”

1 Tim 4:14 (Douay Rheims) “Neglect not the grace that is in thee which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of priesthood.”

NIV Compact Dictionary of the Bible Page 429ORDATION =in the JKV ordain is the translation of about 35 different Hebrew and Greek words. The word has many shades of meaning, chiefly four: 1. Set in order, arrange…2. bring into being…3.decree…4. set apart for an office or duty (Jer. 1:5, Mark 3:14, John 15:16, Act 14:23, 1 Tim. 2:7, Titus 1:5, Heb. 5:1,8:3). Ordination in the sense of getting aside offices or duty of the church for a certain work by the laying on of hands was practical in apostolic time (1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6)

NIV Compact Dictionary of the Bible Page 93BISHOP =Gr. Episkopos, overseer- originally the principal officer of the local church, the other being the deacon or deacons (1 Tim, 3:1-7). The title elder or presbyter generally applied to the same man; “elder” referring to his age and dignity and “bishop” to his work of superintendence. As the church multiplied, the bishop of a larger church would be given special honor, and so gradually there grew up a hierarchy, all the way from presiding elders to bishops (over group of churches), then archbishop.

Nasambit mo rin na “ang papa sa roma hindi nya sinabing tinawag sya alam nyo na kung papaano nagiging papa diba? Usurpation of authority yang ginawa nyo or nya..kami ang may buhay na apostol na tinawag” Ito ang comments ko sa iyo kapatid na Henry, wala ho tayong problema kung may Apostol kayo na buhay; OK? Peru ang tanong ay totoong Apostol bayan? Kami rin po sa Santa Iglesia Catolica ay may napakaraming buhay na mga Apostol-ang mga Obispo po namin (Apotles- but in derivative sense)-Intelligent Theology, Volume-2, Page 71, By: Piet Fransen, SJ. Pakatatandaan po natin na ang mga Apostol ay mga Obispo at ang kahalili ng mga Apostol ay ang Obispo. Narito po ang ating mga ebedensya:

Psalm 109:8 (KJV) Let his days be few; [and] let another take his office.

Psalm 108:8 (Douay Rheims) “May His days be few: and his bishopric let another take.”

In Septuagint or the Greek Old Testament version the common version used by Apostles contains this:

It is parallel to Act 1:20 (KJV) “For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.”

sa Act 1:20 ating makikita na ang greek word na πισκοπν ay ang apostles’ offices o ang office of the bishop.

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1984.htm

ST#1984. episkope (ep-is-kop-ay’) πισκοπν, πισκοπςthe office of a bishop (From episkeptomai; inspection (for relief); by implication, superintendence; specially, the Christian “episcopate” — the office of a “bishop”, bishoprick, visitation.)

With this clear evidence we can arrive with the correct conclusions that apostle’s office is office of a bishop and the office of a bishop is apostle’s office.

Brother nasabi na “Usurpation of authority yang ginawa nyo or nya..kami ang may buhay na apostol na tinawag”; kapatid pwedi bang matunayan mo ang mga sinasabi mo? Another Fallacy of Assuptio non Probata.

Sabi mo pa “patunayan nyo ayun sa biblia na ang Dios hindi na tatawag o magsusugo asa ang verse?” Kapatid para sa kaalaman mo wala pong Doctrina ang Santa Iglesia Catolica na ang Dios hindi na tatawag o magsusugo ng mga Taong taga pamahala ng kanyang Iglesia sapagkat sabi Niya sa Mat. 28:19-20 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: {28:20} Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.” Dito po malinaw na sa panahon ni Kristo, hanggang sa ngayon at sa katapusan ng mundo ay may sinugo parin ang Dios na mga Taong gagawa ng Kanyang mithiin para maging isang instrumento Niya sa sangkataohan. Ito po ay walang putol na apostolic succession sapagkat hindi nagsisinungaling si Kristo ng sabihin Nya sa kanyang mga Apostol na Siya (Cristo) ay sasama sa kanila hanggang sa kataposan ng mundo. Eh kung naputol, tumalikod, pinatay-lahat at wala ng natira sa tunay na iglesiang itinatag ni Cristo, para naring sinasabi po natin na SINUNGALING si CRISTO.

Sabi mo pa brother Henry “kami may patunay lucas 11:49..kaya kami ang nasa tunay na iglesia.” Bro. Henry nang nabasa ko ang conclusion mo ay (Honestly) natawa po ako dahil ang statement po ninyo ay walang ka logic-logic (Ipagpaumanhin po ninyo ako sa nasambit ko na medyo may kasakitan).

Ito po brother Henry ay tinatawag na Fallacy of Non Sequitor– Ang ibig pong sabihin nito ay:

Fallacy –errors in reasoning (Logical Fallacies) & error in understanding (Rhetorical Fallacies). The Art of Argumentation and Debate by: Africa, Page 92

Non Sequitor is a Latin term which means it does not follow. This is a fallacy, which arises when the arguer draws a conclusion from a premise without any attempt to show the connection between the cause and the effect. (The Art of Argumentation and Debate by: Africa, Page 107)

Ito ang tanong mo “pangutana si pedro ba inihula na may kukuha ng kanyang katungkulan..asa ang versikulo?” Salamat sa magandang tanong mo at ang sagot sa magandang tanong mo ay maganda ring sagot. Ang sagot po natin direktaminte ay mayroon po tayong mababasa sa Biblia at Maiintindihan na ibibigay ang kapangyarihan (ng pamamahala) sa Iba at ito ang may susi sa bahay ni David (Isa.22:21-22). At sa panahon ni Cristo ay si San Pedro lang ang may hawak susi ng Kingdom of God (Mat 16:18) and this keys – the reference of the key of the house of David in Isa 22:21-22.

Para mas maintindihan ng ating mambabasa ang ating sagot narito ang karagdagang sagot:

Jer. 33:17 “For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel” –In this verse we can easily seen that David has a successor of representatives throughout history.

Dan. 2:44 “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.” –Dito malinaw na nakasaad na ang Dios ay magtatayo ng isang Kaharian na hindi mawawala hanggang magpakailan man.

Mat. 16:18 “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. {16:19} And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.—Dito malinaw na ang hula sa Daniel 2:44 ang katuparan ay ang tunay na Iglesiang itinatag ni Cristo na kahit ang kamatayan ay hindi ito kailan man madadaig, kaya natural na lamang po na may kahalili ang mga namamahala ng Tunay na Iglesiang itinatag ni Kristo (Pakakatandaan natin na si Pedro ang binigyan ni Cristo ng isang tungkolin na pamahalaan ang buong Iglesia sapagkat Sya (Cristo) ay pupunta sa Ama Juan 21:15-17).

<a href=”http://www.friendster.com/photos/28256155/1/576102759″><img border=”0″ src=”http://photos-p.friendster.com/photos/55/16/28256155/1_576102759l.jpg”/></a&gt;

Mat 28:19-20 Dito nakasaad na sasamahan ni Cristo ang kanyang Iglesia hanggang sa Kataposan ng mundo ditto malinaw na may mga tao Syang sasamahan sa anumang panahon. At pakakatandaan natin na ang itinatag ni Cristo na Iglesia ay may mga tagapamahala (1 Tim 4:14-16, 1 Tim 5:22, James 5:14-15, 1 Tim 3:1-2, Act 20:28). Kaya natural na lamang na may kahalili ang mga ito pag sila ay wala na (Act 1:20).

Isa.22:21-22 “And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. {22:22} And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.” –Dito po napakalinaw na may kahalili si Shebna ito po ay si Eliakim.

Sabi mo pa brother Henry “apostolic succession ay totoo lang kay judas at kay mattias sa acts 1.22-26,si judas kaya may successor dahil sya ay inihula sa lumang tipan”

-Ang counter proposition ko po ditto ay hindi po totoong ang apostolic succession ay kay Judas lang at kay mattias WALA PO TAYONG MABABASA SA BIBLIA NA GANON. At Hindi po totoong si Judas lang ang may successor (ang reason mo na sya (Judas) ay hinulaan sa lumang tipan)-dahil sa Gawa 1:20 ang topic po dyan ay ang hahalili (successor) sa tanggapan (Office) iniwan. At ano naman ang masasabi mo sa Isa. 22:21-22?


Tanong mo “pangutana si pedro ba inihula na may kukuha ng kanyang katungkulan..asa ang versikulo?tubaga ninyo” Ang sagot natin ditto ay napaka simpli wala pong direktaminting hula sa Biblia na si San Pedro ay may kahalili PERU Madaling maiintindihan sa Biblia na Si San Pedro ay may Kahalili (Pakakatandaan na dapat ang Biblia ay Intindihin pag itoy babasahin Neh 8:8).

Sa Isa. 22:21-22 si Shebna ay maykahalili na si Eliakim, at mapapansin natin dito na ang Key of of the house of David is a rabbinic term which means- an authority.

Sa Mat 16:18 si San Pedro po ang tinalaan ng KEYS of KINGDOM of Heaven.

Ang Ibang tanong mo ay “kung matuod na kihanglan gayud na dunay mupuli pag mamatay ang apostol kinsang napatay na apostol ang gipulihan ni pablo?hulaton ko ang tubag nyo?” at dapat tanan na apostol karon naa pa asa man o kinsa man ang nagpuli kay mateo?tomas katong tanan na apostol asa man sila ???

Ang sagot po natin dito ay sa basihan natin na Biblia at ang Tradition ng mga Apostol ang Humalili sa kanilang lahat ay ang mga Obispo. Nasagot po ang tanong.

Para sa ating mambabasa atin pong isusulat ang mga Early Church Fathers tungkol sa kanilang patotoo hingil sa Apostolic Succession, focusing on Saint Peter (The First Bishop of Rome).

Church Fathers are the early and influential theologians and writers in the Christian Church, particularly those of the first five centuries of Christian history. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Fathers)

“And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, ‘I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.’… Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry…For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties.” Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

Clement the bishop of Rome… We learn from St. Irenaeus that Clement was the third bishop of Rome in succession from Peter. (Crossing the Tiber By: Stephen K. Ray, page 133)

“For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ off God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as…Anencletus and Clement to Peter?” Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“Hegesippus in the five books of Memoirs which have come down to us has left a most complete record of his own views. In them he states that on a journey to Rome he met a great many bishops, and that he received the same doctrine from all. It is fitting to hear what he says after making some remarks about the epistle of Clement to the Corinthians. His words are as follows: ‘And the church of Corinth continued in the true faith until Primus was bishop in Corinth. I conversed with them on my way to Rome, and abode with the Corinthians many days, during which we were mutually refreshed in the true doctrine. And when I had come to Rome I remained a there until Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And Anicetus was succeeded by Soter, and he by Eleutherus. In every succession, and in every city that is held which is preached by the law and the prophets and the Lord.'” Hegesippus, Memoirs, fragment in Eusebius Ecclesiatical History, 4:22 (A.D. 180). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

St. Hegesippus – A writer of the second century, known to us almost exclusively from Eusebius, who tells us that he wrote in five books in the simplest style the true tradition of the Apostolic preaching. His work was entitled hypomnemata (Memoirs), and was written against the new heresies of the Gnostics and of Marcion. (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07194a.htm)

“True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God].” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:33:8 (A.D. 180). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

St. Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons, say of himself, “When I was still a boy I saw you in Lower Asia in Polycarp’s company, when you where cutting a fine figure at the imperial court and wanted to be in favor with him. I have a cleaver recollection of events at that time than of recent happenings–what we have learn in childhood develops along with the mind and becomes a part of it….Eusebius, History of the Church ((Crossing the Tiber By: Stephen K. Ray, page 141)

“But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst Of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [that first bishop of theirs] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men,–a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. …To this test, therefore will they be submitted for proof by those churches, who, although they derive not their founder from apostles or apostolic men (as being of much later date, for they are in fact being founded daily), yet, since they agree in the same faith, they are accounted as not less apostolic because they are akin in doctrine…Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith.” Tertullian, Prescription against the Heretics, 33 (A.D. 200). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“And that you may still be more confident, that repenting thus truly there remains for you a sure hope of salvation, listen to a tale? Which is not a tale but a narrative, handed down and committed to the custody of memory, about the Apostle John. For when, on the tyrant’s death, he returned to Ephesus from the isle of Patmos, he went away, being invited, to the contiguous territories of the nations, here to appoint bishops, there to set in order whole Churches, there to ordain such as were marked out by the Spirit.” Clement of Alexandria, Who is the rich man that shall be save?, 42 (A.D. 210). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“We are not to credit these men, nor go out from the first and the ecclesiastical tradition; nor to believe otherwise than as the churches of God have by succession transmitted to us.” Origen, Commentary on Matthew (post A.D. 244). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“Our Lord, whose precepts and admonitions we ought to observe, describing the honour of a bishop and the order of His Church, speaks in the Gospel, and says to Peter: ‘I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.’ Thence, through the changes of times and successions, the ordering of bishops and the plan of the Church flow onwards; so that the Church is founded upon the bishops, and every act of the Church is controlled by these same rulers.” Cyprian, To the Lapsed, 1 (A.D. 250). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“Therefore the power of remitting sins was given to the apostles, and to the churches which they, sent by Christ, established, and to the bishops who succeeded to them by vicarious ordination.” Firmilian, To Cyprian, Epistle 75[74]:16 (A.D. 256). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“It is my purpose to write an account of the successions of the holy apostles, as well as of the times which have elapsed from the days of our Saviour to our own; and to relate the many important events which are said to have occurred in the history of the Church; and to mention those who have governed and presided over the Church in the most prominent parishes, and those who in each generation have proclaimed the divine word either orally or in writing… When Nero was in the eighth year of his reign, Annianus succeeded Mark the evangelist in the administration of the parish of AlexandriaLinus …was Peter’s successor in the episcopate of the church thereClement also, who was appointed third bishop of the church at Rome.Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History,1:1,2:24, (A.D. 325). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“Lo! In these three successions, as in a mystery and a figure … Under the three pastors,–there were manifold shepherds” Ephraem, Nisbene Hymns, The Bishops of Nisibis (Jacob, Babu, Valgesh), 13,14 (A.D. 350). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“[W]hile before your election you lived to yourself, after it, you live for your flock. And before you had received the grace of the episcopate, no one knew you; but after you became one, the laity expect you to bring them food, namely instruction from the Scriptures … For if all were of the same mind as your present advisers, how would you have become a Christian, since there would be no bishops? Or if our successors are to inherit this state of mind, how will the Churches be able to hold together?” Athanasius, To Dracontius, Epistle 49 (A.D. 355). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“[B]elieve as we believe, we, who are, by succession from the blessed apostles, bishops; confess as we and they have confessed, the only Son of God, and thus shalt thou obtain forgiveness for thy numerous crimes.” Lucifer of Calaris, On St. Athanasius (A.D. 361). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“[W]e shall not recede from the faith … as once laid it continues even to this say, through the tradition of the fathers, according to the succession from the apostles, even to the discussion had at Nicea against the heresy which had, at that period, sprung up.” Hilary of Poitiers, History Fragment 7 (ante A.D. 367). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“[D]uring the days of that Anicetus, bishop of Rome, who succeeded Pius and his predecessors, For, in Rome, Peter and Paul were the first both apostles and bishops; then came Linus, then Cletus … However the succession of the bishops in Rome was in the following order. Peter and Paul, and Cletus, Clement…” Epiphanius, Panarion, 27:6 (A.D. 377). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“He [St. Athanasius] is led up to the throne of Saint Mark, to succeed him in piety, no less than in office; in the latter indeed at a great distance from him, in the former, which is the genuine right of succession, following him closely. For unity in doctrine deserves unity in office; and a rival teacher sets up a rival throne; the one is a successor in reality, the other but in name. For it is not the intruder, but he whose rights are intruded upon, who is the successor, not the lawbreaker, but the lawfully appointed, not the man of contrary opinions, but the man of the same faith; if this is not what we mean by successor, he succeeds in the same sense as disease to health, darkness to light, storm to calm, and frenzy to sound sense.” Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 21:8 (A.D. 380). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“For they [Novatians] have not the succession of Peter, who hold not the chair of Peter, which they rend by wicked schism; and this, too, they do, wickedly denying that sins can be forgiven even in the Church, whereas it was said to Peter: ‘I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven.'” Ambrose, Concerning Repentance, 7:33 (A.D. 384). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“It has been ordained by the apostles and their successors, that nothing be read in the Catholic Church, except the law, and the prophets, and the Gospels.” Philastrius of Brescia, On Heresies (ante A.D. 387). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“If the lineal succession of bishops is to be considered with how much more benefit to the Church do we reckon from Peter himself, to whom, as bearing in a figure the whole Church, the Lord said: Upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it!’ For to Peter succeeded Linus, Clement…Damsus, Sircius, Anastasius. In this order of succession no Donatist bishop is too be found.” Augustine, To Generosus, Epistle 53:2 (A.D. 400). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

Let a bishop be ordained by three or two bishops; but if any one be ordained by one bishop, let him be deprived, both himself and he that ordained him. But if there be a necessity that he have only one to ordain him, because more bishops cannot come together, as in time of persecution, or for such like causes, let him bring the suffrage of permission from more bishops.” Apostolic Constitutions, 8:27 (A.D. 400). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“For if the lineal succession of bishops is to be taken into account, with how much more certainty and benefit to the Church do we reckon back till we reach Peter himself, to whom, as bearing in a figure the whole Church, the Lord said: ‘Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it !’ The successor of Peter was Linus, and his successors in unbroken continuity were these: — Clement, Anacletus, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, Telesphorus, Iginus, Anicetus, Pius, Soter, Eleutherius, Victor, Zephirinus, Calixtus, Urbanus, Pontianus, Antherus, Fabianus, Cornelius, Lucius, Stephanus, Xystus, Dionysius, Felix, Eutychianus, Gaius, Marcellinus, Marcellus, Eusebius, Miltiades, Sylvester, Marcus, Julius, Liberius, Damasus, and Siricius, whose successor is the present Bishop Anastasius. In this order of succession no Donatist bishop is found. But, reversing the natural course of things, the Donatists sent to Rome from Africa an ordained bishop, who, putting himself at the head of a few Africans in the great metropolis, gave some notoriety to the name of “mountain men,” or Cutzupits, by which they were known.” Augustine, To Generosus, Epistle 53:2 (A.D. 400). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“‘To the fellow-Bishops and Deacons.” What is this? Were there several Bishops of one city? Certainly not; but he called the Presbyters so. For then they still interchanged the titles, and the Bishop was called a Deacon. For this cause in writing to Timothy, he said, “Fulfill thy ministry,’ when he was a Bishop. For that he was a Bishop appears by his saying to him, ‘Lay hands hastily on no man.’ (1 Tim. v. 22.) And again, ‘Which was given thee with the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery.’ (1 Tim. iv. 14.) Yet Presbyters would not have laid hands on a Bishop. And again, in writing to Titus, he says, ‘For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldest appoint elders in every city, as I gave thee charge. If any man is blameless, the husband of one wife’ (Tit. i. 5, 6); which he says of the Bishop. And after saying this, he adds immediately, ‘For the Bishop must be blameless, as God’s steward, not self willed:’ (Tit. i. 7.)” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Phillipians, 1:1 (A.D. 404). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“And to Timothy he says: ‘Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.’… For even at Alexandria from the time of Mark the Evangelist until the episcopates of Heraclas and Dionysius the presbyters always named as bishop one of their own number chosen by themselves and set in a more exalted position, just as an army elects a general, or as deacons appoint one of themselves whom they know to be diligent and call him archdeacon. For what function excepting ordination, belongs to a bishop that does not also belong to a presbyter? It is not the case that there is one church at Rome and another in all the world beside. Gaul and Britain, Africa and Persia, India and the East worship one Christ and observe one rule of truth. If you ask for authority, the world outweighs its capital. Wherever there is a bishop, whether it be at Rome or at Engubium, whether it be at Constantinople or at Rhegium, whether it be at Alexandria or at Zoan, his dignity is one and his priesthood is one. Neither the command of wealth nor the lowliness of poverty makes him more a bishop or less a bishop. All alike are successors of the apostles.” Jerome, To Evangelus, Epistle 146:1 (ante A.D. 420). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“We must strive therefore in common to keep the faith which has come down to us to-day, through the Apostolic Succession.” Pope Celestine [regn A.D. 422-432], To the Council of Ephesus, Epistle 18 (A.D. 431). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“Examples there are without number: but to be brief, we will take one, and that, in preference to others, from the Apostolic See, so that it may be clearer than day to every one with how great energy, with how great zeal, with how great earnestness, the blessed successors of the blessed apostles have constantly defended the integrity of the religion which they have once received.” Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory for the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith 6:15 (A.D. 434). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

“Moreover, with respect to a certain bishop who, as the aforesaid magnificent men have told us, is prevented by infirmity of the head from administering his office, we have written to our brother and fellow-bishop Etherius, that if he should have intervals of freedom from this infirmity, he should make petition, declaring that he is not competent to fill his own place, and requesting that another be ordained to his Church. For during the life of a bishop, whom not his own fault but sickness, withdraws from the administration of his office, the sacred canons by no means allow another to be ordained in his place. But, if he at no time recovers the exercise of a sound mind, a person should be sought adorned with good life and conversation, who may be able both to take charge of souls, and look with salutary control after the causes and interests of the same church; and he should be such as may succeed to the bishop’s place in case of his surviving him. But, if there are any to be promoted to a sacred order, or to any clerical ministry, we have ordained that the matter is to be reserved and announced to our aforesaid most reverend brother Etherius, provided it belong to his diocese, so that, enquiry having then been made, if the persons are subject to no fault which the sacred canons denounce, he himself may ordain them. Pope Gregory the Great [regn. A.D. 590-604], Epistle 6 (A.D. 602). ). (Copyright 2001 – 2007 © by John Salza. All Rights Reserved johnsalza@scripturecatholic.com)

Nasagot po ang lahat ng Tanong. Maraming salamat po.

17 Responses to “Tanong Galing sa Member ng PMCC 4thwatch (Henry Arganda )”

  1. […] Comments (RSS) « Tanong Galing sa Member ng PMCC 4thwatch (Henry Arganda ) […]

  2. sa iyong mga sagot mr.paisones halatang marami kang iniwasang mga talatang ibinigay o ipinahayag ko lalo na sa maling turo nyo na si pedro ang pundasyun ng iglesia..dito lang tayo sa sagot mong ang mga apostol ay pundasyun sa efeso 2:20 sige pagbibigyan kita dyan sa mali mong unawa sa talatang ito,pero una,bigyan mo nga ako ng isang turo mula sa catholic dogma kumpleto page,volume,na doctrina ng ronama catholica na ang mga apostol at mga propeta ay mga pundasyun.dahil ang binasa mo ay kasama ang mga propeta.at ibigay mo rin kung sinong mga propeta at mga apostol ang kasama ni pedro na pundasyun..hihintayin ko ang sagot mo.alang alang sa mga makakabasa mabuting unawain natin ang sa efeso na ginamit ni paisones.BIBLIA tagalog”na mga itinatayo sa ibabaw ng kinasasaligan ng mga apostol at ng mga propeta,na si cristo jesus din ang pangulong bato sa panulok.kung si mister Paisones ang gumamit ay magiging ganito yun..itinatayo kayo sa ibabaw na ang inyong kinasasaligan ay mga apostol,alam mo paisones para kang si satanas gumamit ng talata binabago mo.”iba ang kinasasaligan ng mga apostol at iba ang kinasasaligan ang mga apostol”sa binasa mo ang sinabi ni pablo ay kinasasaligan ng mga apostol at mga propeta.sana makita mo ang kamalian mo bakit natin masasabing mali sya sa paggamit ng talata,ituloy natin ang basa sa verse 22 “na sa KANYA’Y(Cristo)itinayo naman kayo upang maging tahanan ng Dios sa Espiritu…kanino daw itinayo ang iglesia kay Cristo.kung may traslation man na magsasabi na ang mga apostol at propeta ay pundasyun ay tiyak maling salin ng biblia yun, sapagkat naimali nila ang talata sa kabuuan ng mga aklat ng ibang kasulatan ..sapagkat sinabi na ni pablo sa 1 cor.3:10″sapagkat sinoman ay di makapaglalay ng ibang pinagsasaligan, (pundasyun)kundi ang nalalagay na,na itoy si cristo jesus.kay paisones ito ay ganito..”sapagkat sinoman ay di makapaglalagay ng ibang kinasasaligan kundi ang nalalagay na na itoy si apostol pedro”.

  3. catholicfaithdefender said

    Kapatid na henry,

    Puro ka satsat wala kanamnag ebedensya…

    Ano ba ang gusto mo>?
    Debate ba?
    Walang problema sa akin yan!!!

  4. catholicfaithdefender said

    Henry,

    Patututnayan kung hindi mali ang aral ng Santa Iglesia Catolica…

    Ano payag ka?

  5. bakit mo pa ako tatanungin kung payag?tagal ko nang hinihintay na patunayan nyo,wala ka nang maisagot tulong tulong na kayong lahat na cfd sagutin nyo itong mga ipinahayag ko walllllllllllaaaaaaaaaaa kayong sagot!!!!!!!ano daw ang gusto ko ?debate ba?eh debate na nga ito eh,sa internet nga lang.talagang mga bulag kayo ano? 2cor 4:4.patunayan nyo na aral ng katoliko,”na lahat ng apostol at lahat ng propeta ay pundasyun ayon sa efeso 2:20 saan sa catholic dogma”?sagoooooooooooooooooot!!!!!!!!!!anong volume,page,?????

  6. ang dami ko nang tanong walang sagot ….sagutin nyo na at marami pa akong bala..ha ha ha ha ha ha .soccccccccccccccc tulungan mo itong mga alagad mo di na makasagot.

  7. G-one said

    Ikaw tong talawan sa debate….

    Kung nasa ibang bansa ka… Proksi mo nalang ang ihaharap mo sa akin….

  8. G-one said

    Itong si Henry arganda Talawan man sa debate…Personal tayo mag harap o ang proxsi mo…

  9. wala nang sagot si paisones puro na lang hamon ng devate alam nya kasi ala syang laban sa doktrina lalo na sa intrnt.,alam nya na di sya makaka devate dahil nandito ako sa windsor.,pa kunwari ka lang hamon ng debate dahil di ka papatulan sa plaza kasi pipitsugin ka,ang tawag sa bisaya nyan ay kolo-kolokoy ka lang na debater,pang kanto.sannnnnnnnnn na ang mga sagot mo,kung tinuod ka na na dapat personal dapat di mo na sinagot yung unang mga tanong ko,akala mo kasi makakalusot ka sa baluktot nyong doktrina.sagutin mo lang itong mga tanong ko,at madami pang kasunod yan,baka mabu-ang ka sa kasasagot.yung president nyo nga sa cfd ayaw na makipagdebate sa amin.ikaw pang alagad lang ni soc fernandez…yabang lang yan.at tsaka tiyak pag nakilala mo ako..tiyak di ka lalaban.yung mga kasama nyo dyan sa plaza sa cebu,ewan kung nandun ka rin pati si soc ayaw na yan makig lantugi sa akon,lalo sa san carlos..

  10. paisones naubusan ka na ng isasagot,tanggapin mo na kasi na false church ang katoliko..ikaw lang kasi ang umembento ng sagot mo na ang lahat ng apostol ay pundasyun,tingnan mo tuloy nahirapan ka at di ka na makasagot,mahirap paisones ipagtanggol ang mali at laban sa Biblia..dinagdagan mo pa ang aral ng katoliko na ang lahat ng apostol ay pundasyun.magagalit sayo ang papa.lalo pag buhay pa si cardinal sin.

  11. G-one said

    Mr. Arganda,

    hindi ako naobusan ng sagot, sa totoo lang, kung talagang iniiwasan ko ang mga tanong ko, e- kaya kung e-delete ang mga post mo, peru hindi ko ginawa kasi, sisiw lang sa akin ang mga tanong mo, ang totoo Henry arganda, wala akong sariling computer para sa gusto mo, kaya gusto ko sa personal tayo mag debate..
    Kung nasa ibang bansa ka, eh ang proxi mo nalang kaya….

    Ang proxi mo ang ipahaharap sa akin…ok ba henry…

    Henry sa totoo pinontahan kona ang mga simbahan ng PMCC dito sa lapu2x at cebu, peru walang humrap sa akin ng debate…

    Para hindi ka putak ng putak dito sa internet, mag talaga ka ng kasama mo na makipag debate sa akin…

    wag kang maraming sat2x, at dapat maging profesional tayo brad henry…

    Inoolit ko,, inaanyaya kita ng taos puso na mag debate tayo ng personal, o di kayay ang kasama mo o pastor mo sa 4th watch PMCC ang iharap mo sa akin,

    pwedi one-on-one ang debate pwedi rin by team ang debate…

  12. G-one said

    Mr. Arganda,

    hindi ako naobusan ng sagot, sa totoo lang, kung talagang iniiwasan ko ang mga tanong mo, e- kaya kung e-delete ang mga post mo, peru hindi ko ginawa kasi, sisiw lang sa akin ang mga tanong mo, ang totoo Henry arganda, wala akong sariling computer para sa gusto mo, kaya gusto ko sa personal tayo mag debate..
    Kung nasa ibang bansa ka, eh ang proxi mo nalang kaya….

    Ang proxi mo ang ipahaharap sa akin…ok ba henry…

    Henry sa totoo pinontahan kona ang mga simbahan ng PMCC dito sa lapu2x at cebu, peru walang humrap sa amin ng debate…

    Para hindi ka putak ng putak dito sa internet, mag talaga ka ng kasama mo na makipag debate sa akin…

    wag kang maraming sat2x, at dapat maging profesional tayo brad henry…

    Inoolit ko,, inaanyaya kita ng taos puso na mag debate tayo ng personal, o di kayay ang kasama mo o pastor mo sa 4th watch PMCC ang iharap mo sa akin,

    pwedi one-on-one ang debate pwedi rin by team ang debate…

  13. G-one said

    Henry Arganda, nako, talagang wala kang alam sa Rules ng Argumentation no?

    Pag hindi ka naniniwala sa sagot ng ka-argue mo, eh, dapat ikaw ang magpakita ng ibidensya na mali ang sagot ko…

    Hahanap-hanap kapa ng ng Catholic Dogma,,,
    Hindi ko alam kong nasa tama ang pag-iisip mo…
    eh kung maipakita koba sa iyo ang nilalaman ng Catholic Dogma eh paniniwalaan mo ba…?

    Ikaw tong hindi naniniwala sa sagot ko, ikaw ang dapat mga pakita na kontra ang sagot ko sa Catholic Dogma…

  14. catholicfaithdefender said

    SFC WINNIPEG

    Hindi sa ayaw kong sagutin ang mga tanong ni Henry Arganda, Kung Katoliko ka dapat pag sabihan mo si Henry Arganda na mag Harap na kami sa Debate, o kung nasa ibang bansa sya, ang proxi nalang nya ipahahaharap sa akin…

  15. Kukzee said

    medyo matagal na itong thread na ito– pero walang conclusion… Mr. catholic defender, paki explain nga po ang unang papa ng iglesia katolika ay Tinawag o kung hindi man ay pinatungan ng kamay ng mga apostol para maging successor sa pamamahala ng tupa….

    kasi malaki ang gap ng pagkamatay ni Pedro (itinuturong siyang nag ordain sa sumunod na papa) sa event ng pag proclaim ng unang pope. mga 200 yrs.

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