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Reply from Henry Arganda (Member PMCC 4thwatch) #3

Posted by catholicfaithdefender on January 6, 2009

Reply from Henry Arganda (Member PMCC 4thwatch) #3

Author : henry arganda (IP: 67.68.15.139 , bas2-windsor12-1128533899.dsl.bell.ca)
E-mail : henri_4w@yahoo.ca
URL    : http://www.pmcc4thwatch.com
Whois  : http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=67.68.15.139

Black: -Henry Arganda (New Comments)

Red: -Henry’s Old Replies

Blue: -G-one Paisones’ Old Reply

Green:-G-one Paisones (New Reply)

Comment:
Henry:

#1.sa sagot mo paisones,sa amplipied..ang pinagbatayan mo ay ang footnote..ang footnote ba ay ang kahulugan ng verse..o dagdag ng nagsulat?ang footnote ay comment ng nagsulat ng aklat ..sa baba ang sagot ko dyan sa mali mong pakahulugan sa footnote.

G-one:

Ang punto po natin dito Henry Arganda na mali ka sa akala mo na ang ang petra sa Matt. 16:18 sa Amplified Bible ay si Cristo. Narito ang mga pahayag mo noon:

“well alam ko ginagamit nyo ang amplified bible..and i tell you peter(grk petros)a large piece of rock and upon this Rock petra i will build my church a large piece of rock like gibraltar..means ng gibraltar na syang petra (Christ)pagkalakilaki basahin mo ang gibraltar..kung anong klasing bato”

Ang mali mo sa iyong conclusion na ang Rock “petra” i will build my church a large piece of rock like gibraltar..means ng gibraltar na syang petra (Christ) dahil mismo sa footnote nang naturang Biblia ay: “The rock on which the church is built is traditionally interpreted as either Peter’s inspired confession of faith in Jesus as the Messiah, or it may be Peter himself (see Eph. 2:20).

Ang mali mo ay ginamit mo ang Amplified Bible bilang ebedensya sa mga proposition mo peru ang masaklap hindi mo binasa ang footnote nito. Nidagdagan mo pa ang mali mo kasi sinabi mo na mali ang pagpakahulugan ko sa footnote sa Amplified Bible.

Mr. Arganda wag mo naming ipakahalata na wala ka talagang alam sa Biblia dahil kahit na ang grade school ay maiintindihan ang pahayag ng may akda (sa Amplified Bible) sa kanyang footnote: “The rock on which the church is built is traditionally interpreted as either Peter’s inspired confession of faith in Jesus as the Messiah, or it may be Peter himself (see Eph. 2:20)”.

Henry:

#2na mali mo, “yung mga bible scholar na mga nagpatotoo,pinahayagan ba ng Dios”

?apostol ba sila Gal.1:11-12,ang apostol lang ang pinapahayagan ng Dios..kaya dapat ikaw paisones sa kabuuan ka ng Bible bumatay..hindi sa isang talata lang…

G-one:

Mapapansin po natin sa itaas ang fallacious statement ni Henry Arganda. Ginamamit ko lang ang Amplified Bible (Scholar) sa pag counter sa kanyang argumento, dahil ginamit niya ito (Amplified Bible) bilang ebedensya sa kanyan proposition. At ginamit ko rin ang Amplified Bible sa paggiba (destroy) sa kanyang proposition sa Matt. 16:18.

Mr. Arganda ang kabuohan ng Biblia at ng Apostolic Tradition (2 Tes. 2:15) ako nakabatay.

Henry:

#3 na mali mo!– ang hinahanap ko sayo na sagot mo dapat ay sa catholic dogma,na turo ba ng katoliko na lahat ng apostol at propeta ay pundasyun?ang ginamit mo ay ang sulat ni Soc fernandez ,san kinuha yun ni soc sa catholic dogma ?

G-one:

Hindi ba Henry Arganda napagkasunduan na natin via email (yahoo) ang mga hinanaing mo sa itaas (tungkol sa Catholic Dogma)? Hindi ko pwedi isulat dito ang napagkasunduan natin nahil bawal sa aming mga Catholic Faith Defenders ang adhominim. Pakatandaan mong nagkasundo na tayo hinggil sa bagay na ito. At kung magpupumilit ka; ikaw ang dapat mag pakita ng ebedensya na mali ang pahayag ko o contra ang pahayag ko sa Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. Ginamit ko ang libro ni Bro. Socrates Fernandez bilang ebedensya na tinuturo sa Doctrina ng Santa Iglesia Catolica na ang mga apostol at propeta ay pundasyun.

Henry:

ikaw na rin ang nagsabi na si Cristo ay spiritual na Foundation,,TANONG KO SI PEDRO BA AY LITERAL NA PUNDASYUN SAN MABABASA NA LITERAL FOUNDATION SYA.ANG PAGIGING BATO BA NI PEDRO AY LITIRAL NA BATO,?buti pa si pedro na lang ang sumagot…1 pet 2:5..ang lahat ng mga believers
ay spiritual stones hindi literal na gaya ng kamalian nitong si paisones..

G-one:

Ang sagot sa tanong mo ay si San Pedro ang foundation ng iglesia (Matt. 16:18, Efe. 2:20)! Kung binasa pa ni Henry ang reply#2 ko sa kanya, hindi na sya babangit ng katulad nito: “1 pet 2:5..ang lahat ng mga believers ay spiritual stones hindi literal na gaya ng kamalian nitong si paisones” dahil sinabi ko na: “Believers ay Bato (1 Ped. 2:5 Magandang Balita Biblia)

Narito ang naunang reply ko kay Henry Arganda:

Sa Bible hindi po dapat natin limitahan ang ating pang-unawa sa mga termino o mga salitang bumabasi sa SUBJECT ng mga ito dahil kalimitan ng mga TERMS na ito ay FIGURATIVE o BIBLICAL EXPRESSION.

Halimbawa:

“BATO”

-DIOS ay Bato (2 Sam. 22:2-3)

-Cristo ay Bato (1 Cor. 10:4)

-Pedro ay Bato (John 1:42)

-Believers ay Bato (1 Ped. 2:5 Magandang Balita Biblia)

Henry:

si pedro ay bato lang sa pangalan.at di sya ang kinatatayuan ng iglesia..kay Cristo nakatayo.Epeso 2:22,babaguhin na naman yan ni Paisones parang si satanas gumamit ng salita..

G-one:

Akalain mo nga naman itong si Henry Arganda- para daw akong si satanas. Ehemm… Si Cristo ang nag pangalan kay Simon na “Kepha” dahil Siya (Cristo) ay mag tatag ng kaharian na hindi kalian man madadaig ng Kamatayan (Dan. 2:44) at itong kaharian na ito ay ang Iglesia (Mat. 16:18). Sinamahan at pinamunuan Nya ito (Ang Iglesia) ng Siya ay nabubuhay pa; nang Siya ay pumunta na sa Langit, itinalaga Niya sa Kanyang mga apostol ang mga Gawain bilang ambassador at Obispo (Mat. 28:19,Luke 10:16, Act. 1:20-25) at ang pangkalahatang Obispo sa mga Obispo -kay San Pedro (John 21:15-17). Kaya pinangalanang Kepha (John 1:42) ni Cristo si Simon sapagkat siya ang mag sibling tagapangalaga ng lahat ng kasapi ng Iglesia at Si Pedro ang foundation ng Iglesia kasama na rito ang mga apostol at profeta (Efe. 2:20). Mr. Arganda hindi ko binago ang nakasulat sa Biblia, IKAW ang bumago sa pagkaintindi mo sa Biblia.

Ang mga sinaunang Cristiano ba sa kapanahunan ng 2nd Century (pagkatapos ng kapanahonan ng mga Apostol) hanggang 10th Century ay katulad ng pag-iisip ni Henry Arganda hingil kay Pedro at sa mga Apostol?

Hindi po sapagkat ang paniniwala ng mga Church Fathers po ay contrary sa exegesis ni Henry Arganda. Narito po ang pahayag ng mga Church Fathers atbp:

Peter is the Rock on which the Church is Built

(Taken from ScriptureCatholic.com)

“Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the church should be built,’ who also obtained ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven…’” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against the Heretics, 22 (c. A.D. 200).

“And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail…” Origen, Commentary on John, 5:3 (A.D. 232).

“By this Spirit Peter spake that blessed word, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ By this Spirit the rock of the Church was established.” Hippolytus, Discourse on the Holy Theophany, 9 (ante A.D. 235).

“’…thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church’ … It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church’s) oneness…If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?” Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae (Primacy text), 4 (A.D. 251).

“…folly of (Pope) Stephen, that he who boasts of the place of the episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundation of the Church were laid…” Firmilian, Epistle To Cyprian, Epistle 75(74):17(A.D. 256).

“…Peter, that strongest and greatest of all the apostles, and the one who on account of his virtue was the speaker for all the others…” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 2:14 (A.D. 325).

“And Peter,on whom the Church of Christ is built, ‘against which the gates of hell shall not prevail’” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6:25 (A.D. 325).

“…the chief of the disciples…the Lord accepted him, set him up as the foundation, called him the rock and structure of the church.” Aphraates, De Paenitentibus Homily 7:15 (A.D. 337).

“Peter, the foremost of the Apostles, and Chief Herald of the Church…” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,1 1:3 (A.D. 350).

“[B]lessed Simon, who after his confession of the mystery was set to be the foundation-stone of the Church, and received the keys of the kingdom…” Hilary de Poiters, On the Trinity, 6:20(A.D. 359).

“[F]or the good of unity blessed Peter, for whom it would have been enough if after his denial he had obtained pardon only, deserved to be placed before all the apostles, and alone received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, to be communicated to the rest.” Optatus of Milevis, De Schismate Donatistorum, 7:3(A.D. 370).

“[T]he Lord spoke to Peter a little earlier; he spoke to one, that from one he might found unity, soon delivering the same to all.” Pacian, To Sympronianus, Epistle 3:2 (AD 372).

“Simon, My follower, I have made you the foundation of the Holy Church. I betimes called you Peter (Kepha), because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me…I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, have given you authority over all my treasures.” Ephraim, Homily 4:1, (A.D. 373).

“[T]he first of the apostles, the solid rock on which the Church was built.” Epiphanius, In Ancorato, 9:6 (A.D. 374).

“Peter upon which rock the Lord promised that he would build his church.” Basil, In Isaias, 2:66 (A.D. 375).

“As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!” Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15 (A.D. 375).

“Seest thou that of the disciples of Christ, all of whom were exalted and deserving of choice, one is called rock, and is entrusted with the foundations of the church.” Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 32:18 (A.D. 380).

“[W]e have considered that it ought be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it…”…The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither the stain nor blemish nor anything like it.” Pope Damasus, Decree of Damasus, 3 (A.D. 382).

”It was right indeed that he (Paul) should be anxious to see Peter; for he was the first among the apostles, and was entrusted by the Savior with the care of the churches.” Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Galatians, PL 17:344 (A.D. 384).

“Peter bore the person of the church.” Augustine, Sermon 149:7 (inter A.D. 391-430).

“Number the priests even from that seat of Peter. And in that order of fathers see to whom succeeded: that is the rock which the proud gates of hades do not conquer.” Augustine, Psalmus contro Partem Donati (A.D. 393).

“But you say, the Church was rounded upon Peter: although elsewhere the same is attributed to all the Apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the Church depends upon them all alike, yet one (Peter) among the twelve is chosen so that when a head has been appointed, there may be no occasion for schism.” Jerome, Against Jovinianus, 1 (A.D. 393).

“The memory of Peter, who is the head of the apostles…he is the firm and most solid rock, on which the savior built his Church.” Gregory of Nyssa, Panegyric on St. Stephen, 3 (ante A.D. 394).

“Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church,” Wherefore where Peter is the Church is…” Ambrose, Commentary on the Psalms, 40:30 (AD 395).

“At length, after being tempted by the devil, Peter is set over the Church.” Ambrose, Commentary on the Psalms, 43:40 (AD 397).

“In order that he may show his power, God has endowed none of his disciples with gifts like Peter. But, having raised him with heavenly gifts, he has set him above all. And, as first disciple and greater among the brethren, he has shown, by the test of deeds, the power of the Spirit. The first to be called, he followed at once…The Saviour confided to this man, as some special trust, the whole universal Church, after having asked him three times ‘Lovest thou me?’ And he receive the world in charge…” Asterius, Homily 8 (A.D. 400).

“(Peter) The first of the Apostles, the foundation of the Church, the coryphaeus of the choir of disciples.” John Chrysostom, Ad eos qui scandalizati 17(ante A.D. 407).

“Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received revelation not from man but from the Father…this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean that unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, the great Apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey.” John Chrysostom, De Eleemosyna, 3:4 (ante A.D. 407).

“This Peter on whom Christ freely bestowed a sharing in his name. For just as Christ is the rock, as the Apostle Paul taught, so through Christ Peter is made rock, when the Lord says to him: “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church…” Maximus of Turin, Homily 63 (A.D. 408).

“…the most firm rock, who (Peter) from the principal Rock received a share of his virtue and his name.” Prosper of Aquitaine, The Call of All Nations, 2:28(A.D. 426).

“He promises to found the church, assigning immovableness to it, as He is the Lord of strength, and over this he sets Peter as shepherd.” Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on Matthew (A.D. 428).

“[B]ut that great man, the disciple of disciples, that master among masters, who wielding the government of the Roman Church possessed the authority in faith and priesthood. Tell us therefore, tell us we beg of you, Peter, prince of the Apostles, tell us how the churches must believe in God.” John Cassian, Contra Nestorium, 3:12 (A.D. 430).

“There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever, lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place…” Philip, Council of Ephesus, Session III (A.D. 431).

“[B]lessed Peter preserving in the strength of the Rock, which he has received, has not abandoned the helm of the Church, which he under took…And so if anything is rightly done and rightly decreed by us, if anything is won from the mercy of God by our daily supplications, it is of his work and merits whose power lives and whose authority prevails in his See…to him whom they know to be not only the patron of this See, but also primate of all bishops. When therefore…believe that he is speaking whose representative we are:..” Pope Leo the Great, Sermon 3:3-4 (A.D. 442).

“We exhort you, honourable brother, to submit yourself in all things to what has been written by the blessed Bishop of Rome, because St. Peter, who lives and presides in his see, gives the true faith to those who seek it. For our part, for the sake of peace and the good of the faith, we cannot judge questions of doctrine without the consent of the Bishop of Rome.” Peter Chrysologus, Epistle 25 of Leo from Peter (A.D. 449).

“If Paul, the herald of the truth, the trumpet of the Holy Ghost, hastened to the great Peter in order that he might carry from him the desired solution of difficulties to those at Antioch who were in doubt about living in conformity with the law, much more do we, men insignificant and small, hasten to your apostolic see in order to receive from you a cure for the wounds of the churches. For every reason it is fitting for you to hold the first place, inasmuch as your see is adorned with many privileges.” Theodoret of Cyrus, To Pope Leo, Epistle 113 (A.D. 449).

“[T]he Lord wished to be indeed the concern of all the Apostles: and from him as from the Head wishes His gifts to flow to all the body: so that any one who dares to secede from Peter’s solid rock may understand that he has no part or lot in the divine mystery.” Pope Leo the Great, To Bishops of Vienne, Epistle 10 (A.D. 450).

“Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith…” Council of Chalcedon, Session III (A.D. 451).

“Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, hath stripped him of the episcopate, and hath alienated from him all hieratic worthiness. ‘Peter, the apostle, who is the rock and support of the Catholic Church.’” Paschasinus, Council of Chalcedon, Session III (A.D. 451).

“Peter is again called ‘the coryphaeus of the Apostles.’” Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25 (ante A.D. 468).

“The holy Roman Church is senior to the other churches not by virtue of any synodal decrees, but obtained the primacy from Our Lord and Savior in the words of the Gospel, ‘Thou art Peter…’” Pope Gelasius, Decree of Gelasium (A.D. 492).

“[T]he statement of Our Lord Jesus Christ who said, ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’…These (words) which were spoken, are proved by the effects of the deeds, because in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been preserved without stain.’” Pope Hormisdas, Libellus professionis fidei, (A.D. 519).

“To Peter, that is, to his church, he gave the power of retaining and forgiving sins on earth.” Fulgentius, De Remissione Peccatorum, 2:20 (A.D. 523).

“Who could be ignorant of the fact that the holy church is consolidated in the solidity of the prince of the Apostles, whose firmness of character extended to his name so that he should be called Peter after the ‘rock’, when the voice of the Truth says, ‘I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven’. To him again is said “When after a little while thou hast come back to me, it is for thee to be the support of thy brethren.” Pope Gregory the Great, Epistle 40 (A.D. 604).

“The decrees of the Roman Pontiff, standing upon the supremacy of the Apostolic See, are unquestionable.” Isidore of Seville, (ante A.D. 636).

“For the extremities of the earth, and all in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord, look directly towards the most holy Roman Church and its confession and faith, as it were a sun of unfailing light, awaiting from it the bright radiance of our fathers, according to what the six inspired and holy Councils have purely and piously decreed, declaring most expressly the symbol of faith. For from the coming down of the Incarnate Word among us, all the churches in every part of the world have possessed that greatest church alone as their base and foundation, seeing that, according to the promise of Christ Our Savior, the gates of hell do never prevail against it, that it possesses the Keys of right confession and faith in Him, that it opens the true and only religion to such as approach with piety, and shuts up and locks every heretical mouth that speaks injustice against the Most High.” Maximus the Confessor, Opuscula theologica et polemica (A.D. 650).

“Peter was pronounced blessed by the Lord…the duty of feeding the spiritual sheep of the Church under whose protecting shield, this Apostolic Church of his has never turned away from the path of truth in any direction of error, whose authority, as that of the Prince of all the Apostles, the whole Catholic Church and the Ecumenical Synods have faithfully embraced…” Pope Agatho, To Ecumenical Council VI at Constantinople, (A.D. 680).

“A copy of the letter sent by the holy and Ecumenical Sixth Council to Agatho, the most blessed and most holy pope of Old Rome…Therefore to thee, as to the bishop of the first see of the Universal Church, we leave what must be done, since you willingly take for your standing ground the firm rock of the faith, as we know from having read your true confession in the letter sent by your fatherly beatitude to the most pious emperor: and we acknowledge that this letter was divinely written (perscriptas) as by the Chief of the Apostles, and through it we have cast out the heretical sect of many errors which had recently sprung up..” Constantinople III, Council to Pope Agatho, (A.D. 680).

“For, although the devil desired to sift all the disciples, the Lord testifies that He Himself asked for Peter alone, and wished that the others be confirmed my him; and to Peter also was committed the care of ‘feeding the sheep'(John 21:15);and to him also did the Lord hand over the ‘keys of the kingdom of heaven'(Matthew 16:19),and upon him did He promise to ‘build His Church’ (Matthew 16:18);and He testified that ‘the gates of Hell would not prevail against it’ (Matthew 16:19).” Pope Pelagius II, Quod Ad Dilectionem (c. A.D. 685).

“’Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, and to thee I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven’? When Wilfrid spoken thus, the king said, ‘It is true, Colman, that these words were spoken to Peter by our Lord?’ He answered, ‘It is true O king!’ Then says he, ‘Can you show any such power given to your Columba?’ Colman answered, ‘None.’ Then added the king, “Do you both agree that these words were principally directed to Peter, and that the keys of heaven were given to him by our Lord?’ They both answered, ‘We do.’” Venerable Bede, (A.D. 700), Ecclesiastical History, 3:5 (A.D. 700).

Link:

Henry:

yung mga protestanteng nag patotoo sa mat.16:18 mga mali din yun kasi may bahid pa ng mali ng katoliko yun kasi lumabas lang yun sa katoliko.

G-one:

Ewan ko kung nasa tamang pag-iisip si Henry Arganda. Mr. Arganda mag review ka nga ng Logic at Argumentation / Debate, dahil Fallacy of Non Sequitor ang mga contention mo. Fallacy of Non Sequitor– Ang ibig pong sabihin nito ay:

Fallacy –errors in reasoning (Logical Fallacies) & error in understanding (Rhetorical Fallacies). The Art of Argumentation and Debate by: Africa, Page 92

Non Sequitor is a Latin term which means it does not follow. This is a fallacy, which arises when the arguer draws a conclusion from a premise without any attempt to show the connection between the cause and the effect. (The Art of Argumentation and Debate by: Africa, Page 107)

Hindi porkit lumabas sa Katoliko (Libro ng Katoliko) eh mali na iyon. Ang may akda tulad ni Fr. Ben Carreon ay sumulat lamang sa mga factual evidence hinggil sa mga stand ng scholars na mga protestante. Hindi basta-basta sinulat lang niya (Fr. Ben Carreon) na walang ebedinsya. Hindi po na emplowensyahan ang mga scholars na mga protestanti (ng Santa Iglesia Catolica) sa kanilang stand na si Pedro ang foundation ng iglesia sa Matt. 16:18.

Henry:

sa iyong footnotes sa amplified,nag jump ka sa iyong conclusion na inaangkin na naglagay ng comment na si Pedro ang pagtatayuan ng Iglesia.Matthew 16 (Amplified Bible)

18And I tell you, you are [e]Peter [Greek, Petros–a large piece of rock], and on this rock [Greek, petra–a [f]huge rock like Gibraltar] I will build My church, and the gates of Hades (the powers of the [g]infernal region) shall [h]not overpower it [or be strong to its detriment or hold out against it].

Footnotes:

e. Matthew 16:18 The rock on which the church is built is traditionally interpreted as either Peter’s inspired confession of faith in Jesus as the Messiah, or it may be Peter himself (see Eph. 2:20).
Basahin mo ulit at unawain mo,…”or it may be…” nagpapahayag ng isang sugestion at hindi absolute conclusion na si pedro ang pagtatayuan

G-one:

Hindi nga absolute conclusion na si Pedro ang pagtatayuan sa Amplified Bible dahil sa conjunction na “OR” peru ipinahiwatig ng may akda (Amplified Bible) na “either Peter’s inspired confession of faith in Jesus as the Messiah, or it may be Peter himself –is the rock on which the church is built. Samakatuwid dalawa lang ang pinag-pipilian ng may akda at salungat ito sa pahayag mo na si Cristo ang “bato” sa Matt. 16:18 (nang ginamit mo ang Amplified Bible sa contention mo).

Henry:
Ginamit mo ang mga protestant bible scholar,

G-one:

Ginamit ko ang mga protestant bible scholars; at may factual evidence ako hingil dito.

Henry:

ito naman ang isinulat ni Lorraine Boettner,a Theologian,Roman Catholism p.105″The Rock” -Romanist quote(Matt.16:13-19) this verse with relish,and add their own interpretation to establish their claim for papal authority. But in the greek the word peter is Petros,a person, masculine, while the word “rock”,petra is feminine and refers not to a person but to the declaration of Christ’s deitythat Peter had just uttered–“Thou art the Christ,the Son of the Living God”
Using Peter’s name and making as it were,play upon words,Jesus said to Peter,”You are Petros and upon this petra I will build my church” The truth that Peter had just confessed was the foundation upon which Christ would build His church.He meant that Peter had seen the basic,essential truth concerning His person,the essential truth upon which the church would be founded, and that nothing would be able to overthrow that truth, not even all the forces of evil that might be arrayed against it.Peter was the first among the disciples to see our Lord as the Christ of God.Christ commended him for that spiritual insight, and said that His church would be founded upon that fact. And that, of course was a far different thing from founding the church on Peter.
Had Christ intended to say that the Church would be founded on Peter,it would have been ridiculous for him to have shifted to the feminine form of the word in the middle of the statement,saying,if we may translate literally and somewhat whimsically,”And I say unto thee, that thou art Mr.Rock and upon this,the Miss Rock,I will build my church.” Clearly it was upon the truth that Peter had expressed, the deity of Christ,and not upon weak, vascillating Peter,that the church would be founded.The greek Petros is commonly used of a movable stone,a mere pebble,as it were.But “petra” means immovable foundation, in this instance the basic truth that Peter had just confessed,the deity of Christ.And in fact that is the point of conflict in the churches today between evangelicals on the one hand and modernist or liberals on the other,whether the church is founded on a truly divine Christ as revealed in a fully trustworthy Bible,or whether it is essentially a social service and moral welfare
organization which recognizes Christ as an example, an outstandingly great and good man,but denies or ignores His deity.”

G-one:

Tungkol naman kay Lorraine Boettner masasabi nating itoy isang poor scholarship niya sapagkat sinabi niya na ang Petros ay kaiba sa petra dahil nga ang petros ay masculine at ang petra ay feminine peru pakakatandaan natin na ang vocal language na ginamit ni Jesu-Cristo sa panahon na ito (Mat. 16) ay ang Aramaic. Kaya nga tinawag ni Cristo si Simon na Kepha (John 1:42). Sa nasambit na natin sa Reply#2 kay Henry ang petros at petra ay walang pinagkakaiba sa Aramaic:

Sa Matt. 16 ang linguahe na isinulat dito ay ang Greek; pero ang linguahing sinalita o ginamit ng Panginoon Jesus at nang mga apostol ay ang Aramaic. Ang BarJonah ay salitang Aramaic na ibig sabihin ay “son of Jonah”. Majority po ng mga scholar ay naniniwala na ang madalas na wikain ng Panginoong Jesus ay ang Aramaic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_of_Jesus)

Kaya ang Matt. 16:18 na PETROS sa pagkasulat, peru ang ibinigkas talaga ng Panginoong Jesus ay KEPHA. Pariho lang po ang kahulugan ng PETROS (in Greek) sa KEPHA (in Aramaic) – “And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter f ). John 1:42 (TNIV)” at nasa footnote ng Today’s New International Version (TNIV) na ang CEPHAS ay Aramaic.

Kaya sa Aramaic Bible ay walang pinag-iba ang Pedro sa Bato. Pawang KEPHA po ang Aramaic word ng Pedro at Bato dahil ang ibig sabihin ng Pedro ay Bato:



At ang mga bihasang protestante ay alam ang mga nasambit natin sa itaas:

David Hill
Presbyterian minister and Senior Lecturer in the Department of Biblical Studies
University of Sheffield, England

On this rock I will build my church: the word-play goes back to Aramaic tradition. It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will build the Church. The disciple becomes, as it were, the foundation stone of the community. Attempts to interpret the “rock” as something other than Peter in person (e.g., his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which is highly unlikely.

“The Gospel of Matthew”
The New Century Bible Commentary
(London: Marshall, Morgan & Scott, 1972), page 261
JPK page 34


Suzanne de Dietrich
Presbyterian theologian

The play on words in verse 18 indicates the Aramaic origin of the passage. The new name contains a promise. “Simon”, the fluctuating, impulsive disciple, will, by the grace of God, be the “rock” on which God will build the new community.

The Layman’s Bible Commentary: Matthew, vol. 16
(Atlanta: John Knox Press, 1961), page 93
JPK page 34


Donald A. Hagner
Fuller Theological Seminary

The natural reading of the passage, despite the necessary shift from Petros to petra required by the word play in the Greek (but not the Aramaic, where the same word kepha occurs in both places), is that it is Peter who is the rock upon which the church is to be built…. The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny this in favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock… seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Roman Catholics to justify the papacy.

Matthew 14-28
Word Biblical Commentary, vol. 33b
(Dallas: Word Books, 1995), page 470
JPK pages 36-37


John A. Broadus
Baptist author
(two quotations from the same work)

Many insist on the distinction between the two Greek words, thou art Petros and on this petra, holding that if the rock had meant Peter, either petros or petra would have been used both times, and that petros signifies a separate stone or fragment broken off, while petra is the massive rock. But this distinction is almost entirely confined to poetry, the common prose word instead of petros being lithos; nor is the distinction uniformly observed.

But the main answer here is that our Lord undoubtedly spoke Aramaic, which has no known means of making such a distinction [between feminine petra and masculine petros in Greek]. The Peshitta (Western Aramaic) renders, “Thou are kipho, and on this kipho“. The Eastern Aramaic, spoken in Palestine in the time of Christ, must necessarily have said in like manner, “Thou are kepha, and on this kepha“…. Beza called attention to the fact that it is so likewise in French: “Thou art Pierre, and on this pierre“; and Nicholson suggests that we could say, “Thou art Piers (old English for Peter), and on this pier.”

Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew
(Valley Forge, PA: Judson Press, 1886), pages 355-356
JPK page 20

(At marami pang iba, please refer to Reply#2)

https://catholicfaithdefender.wordpress.com/2008/12/27/reply-from-henry-arganda-member-pmcc-4thwatch-2/

Henry:
Patunay yan paisones na hindi lahat ng protestants ay pareho ang paniwala,”may conflict” kung matino kang gumamit ng mga protestants schoolar or teologian,dapat lahat gagamitin mo.

G-one:

Henry Arganda alam kong hindi lahat ng mga protestant scholars ay may stand na si San Pedro ang Foundation sa Matt. 16:19. Kung matino ka Mr. Arganda at alam mo ang rules ng public discussion hindi kana mag komento ng tulad nito: “kung matino kang gumamit ng mga protestants schoolar or teologian,dapat lahat gagamitin mo”

Alam kong hindi lahat ng protestante ay nagkakasundo hinggil sa kanilang interpretation sa Biblia, kaya nga hindi nagkakaisa ang mga protestante sa kani-kanilang doctrina. Ang contention ko ay si San Pedro ang pinagtatayuan ng Iglesia sa Matt. 16:18 at bilang suporta sa mga argumento ko isinulat ko ang mga protestanting pabor sa contention ko. Pakakaalaman natin na ang mga protestante ay tinawag na protestante sapagkat contra sila sa mga doctrina ng Santa Iglesia. Kaya ginamit ko ang mga protestante na pabor sa contention ko dahil ang nature ng protestante ay contrahin ang doctrina ng Santa Iglesia Catolica.

Henry:
-one: Para sa kalinawan ng lahat hindi po namin sinabi na si Pedro lamang ang pundasyon na mababasa sa BUONG BIBLIA. Napakasinungaling po nitong si Mr. Arganda. Mr. Arganda saan po nabasa na sinulat ko na si Pedro lang ang pundasyon na mababasa sa Buong Biblia? Ang sabi ko na si Pedro lamang ang Pundation na tinotokoy na pagtatayuan ng Iglesia sa Matt. 16:18 (specific verse in the Bible; not whole Bible); hindi ko sinabing si Pedro LAMANG ang Foundation ng Iglesia na mababasa sa Buong Biblia. Para maintindihan ng lahat… Sa Matt. 16:18 si Pedro lamang ang tinutukoy na syang pagtatayuan ng Iglesia (kung sa Matt. 16:18 lamang ang pag-uusapan) peru kung sa buong biblia na pag-uusapan abay hindi ko sinasabing si San Pedro lamang ang Foundation ng Iglesia; pati narin ang Panginoong Jesu-Cristo, mga Apostol at mga Propeta ay Foundation rin ng tunay na Iglesiang itinatag ni Cristo (Efe. 2:20).

Bingo!!!!!yan inamin mo na hindi lamang si pedro ang pundasyun ng iglesia kung ang biblia sa kabuuan ang pagbabatayan!!pero teka basahin natin ang isang sagot mo…

G-one:

FITA!!!!

Tulad ng nasambit ko na na hindi lamang si San Pedro ang foundation ng iglesia kung patungkol sa boung laman ng Biblia (Efe. 2:20) peru sa Matt. 16:18 si San Pedro ang foundation ng Iglesia.

Henry:
G-one: Itong si Henry napakasinungaling, Hindi po doctrina ng Santa Iglesia Catolica na si Cristo ay hindi foundation; kaya nga ginamit po namin ang Efe. 2:20 dahil aral ng Iglesia Catolica yang verse na yan. Ang punto po naming dito na SA MATTHEW 16:18 SI SAN PEDRO PO ANG BATO NA SINABI NI CRISTO NA PAGTATAYOAN NG KANYANG IGLESIA. Therefore Saint Peter is the Foundation of the Church in Matt. 16:18.

dito tayo sa jump conclucion mo…SA MAT.16:18 SI SAN PEDRO PO ANG BATO NA SINABI NI CRISTO NA PAGTATAYUAN NG IGLESIA,.”THEREFORE MR.PAISONES KUNG HINDI LANG SI PEDRO ANG PUNDASYUN NG IGLESIA ,AY MARAMING BATO..???samakatuwid maraming bato sa mateo 16:18,si Cristo,si pedro,at ang mga alagad (kasama ni pedrong mga apostol)verse 13—

G-one:

Ang tanong ni Henry Arganda ay hindi malinaw “THEREFORE MR.PAISONES KUNG HINDI LANG SI PEDRO ANG PUNDASYUN NG IGLESIA ,AY MARAMING BATO..???– Baka ang tanong ni Henry ay ganito “THEREFORE MR.PAISONES KUNG HINDI LANG SI PEDRO ANG PUNDASYUN NG IGLESIA, ANG IGLESIA AY MARAMING BATO..???

Ang sagot po natin sa tanong ni Henry Arganda:

SA MAT.16:18 SI SAN PEDRO PO ANG BATO NA SINABI NI CRISTO NA PAGTATAYUAN NG IGLESIA. At singular lang po ang ginamit rito na bato sa Matt. 16:18 na patungkol kay San Pedro.

PERU KUNG SA BOUNG BIBLIA HINDI LANG SI PEDRO ANG FUNDATION KUNG PATUNGKOL SA BUONG BIBLIA ANG PAG-UUSAPAN (Efe. 2:20).
Tingnan po natin ang argument ni Mr. Henry pagkatapos ng kanyang tanong:

samakatuwid maraming bato sa mateo 16:18,si Cristo,si pedro,at ang mga alagad (kasama ni pedrong mga apostol)verse 13—

Sa mababasa natin sa Matt. 16:18 isa (singular) lang ang batong pinag-uusapan rito- at ito ay si Pedro.

Henry:
sabi mo aral ng katoliko ang verse na yang sa efeso 2:20 –saan nga sa catholic dogma?wag si soc ang gamitin mo..yung official na aklat na Doktrina na katoliko…catholic dogma(doctrine)

G-one:

Hindi ba Henry Arganda napagkasunduan na natin via email (yahoo) ang mga hinanaing mo sa itaas (tungkol sa Catholic Dogma) suman-ayon ka muna sa napagkasunduan natin? Pagnabasa ko na ang Efe. 2:20 ay doctrina ng Santa Iglesia Catolica ayon sa Catholic dogma(doctrine) sang-ayon kaba sa napag kasunduan natin sa yahoo mail?

Henry Saan mababasa sa Catholic Dogma na hindi doctrina ng Santa Iglesia Catolica ang Efe. 2:20?


Henry:
samakatuwid paisones kung ang kabuuan ng biblia ang pagbabatayan ay mali ang unawa mo sa mat 16:18..na si pedro lamang ang pundasyun ng iglesia.tinatanggap mo ba ito?sagutin mo!

G-one:

Sa Matt. 16:18 ““And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”. Upon this rock is singular and this refers to Saint Peter. Eph. 2:19-20 (Jerusalem Bible) So you are no longer aliens or foreign visitors: you are citizens like all the saints, and of God’s household. You are part of a building that has the apostles and prophets for its foundations, and Christ Jesus himself for its main cornerstone.

Pansinin po natin ang sentence na You are part of a building that has the apostles and prophets for its foundations, and Christ Jesus himself for its main cornerstone” sa Jerusalem Bible. Sa Eph. 2:19 nakasaad po doon na “you are citizens like all the saints, and of God’s household” ibig sabihin po nito na kasapi naho tayo sa house ng Diyos. Ang house of God ay ang Iglesia po (1 Tim. 3:15 KJV “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”). We are part of the building (The Church) being built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets and Christ Jesus himself for its main cornerstone (Eph. 2:19-20).

Kaya hindi mali ang unawa ko sa Matt. 16:18 na si Pedro ang foundation ng Iglesia; at sa buong Biblia pati narin ng mga apostol, mga porfeta at si Cristo (main corner stone) mismo ang foundation ng iglesia.

Henry:
G-paisones-said, peru kung sa buong biblia na pag-uusapan abay hindi ko sinasabing si San Pedro lamang ang Foundation ng Iglesia; pati narin ang Panginoong Jesu-Cristo, mga Apostol at mga Propeta ay Foundation rin ng tunay na Iglesiang itinatag ni Cristo (Efe. 2:20).
sa sagot mong ito Paisones ay maraming pundasyun ang iglesia..KUNG MAY MABASA AKONG BERSIKULO NA ISA LANG ANG PUNDASYUN NG IGLESIA SI CRISTO LANG AAMININ MO BA NA FALSE CHURCH ANG KATOLIKO?

G-one:

Siguro ang nasa isipan ni Henry Arganda na gagamitin niya ay ang 1 Cor 3:11? Peru ganito po ang tamang interpretation sa 1 Cor. 3:11:

Sa pundation ng Tunay na Iglesia, hindi lamang si Pedro o mga apostol at mga propeta ang nag silbing pundasyon dito, bagkus nariyan si Cristo ang Batong Espiritwal(1 Cor. 10:4) na foundation din ng tunay na Iglesia (1 Cor 3:11) (Defense Catholic Truth by Bro. Socrates Fernandez, Page 59-60) dahil sasamahan nya ang Kanyang Iglesia hanggang sa kataposan ng mundo (Mat. 28:19-20) at hinding-hindi ito madadaig ng kamatayan (Matt. 16:18-19). Kaya hindi po contradict ang Matt. 16:18 at Eph. 2:20 sa 1 Cor. 3:11.

Ang ibig sabihin sa “for other foundation can no man lay” ito po yong mga itinatag na Iglesia na tao lamang ang nag tatag, at hindi si Cristo (Act 17:24 KJV “God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands,”) -tulad na lamang ng 4th Watch PMCC na itinatag ni Arsenio Feriol dito sa Pilipinas.

Ang 4th Watch PMCC na itinatag ni Arsenio Ferriol ay hindi tunay na iglesia sapagkat ayon kay Cristo na Siya ay mag tatag ng Kanyang Iglesia (Matt. 16:18) at naitatag nya ito (Mat. 18:17) at sasamahan nya ito araw-araw hanggang sa kataposan ng mundo (Matt. 28:19-20) kaya mula sa panahon ng Panginoon Jesu-Cristo hanggang sa kasalukoyan NARITO PARIN ANG TUNAY NA IGLESIA- AT ITO ANG SANTA, IGLESIA, CATOLICA, APOSTOLICA, ROMANA. Samantalang ang 4th Watch PMCC ay wala pang isang daan taon itong itinatag ni Arsenio Ferriol.

Ang Santa Iglesia Catolica lamang ang makapag-dugtong sa panahon ni Cristo hanggang sa kasalukoyang panahon.

Henry:

G-one says-Sabi mo na mali ang naka sulat sa Efe. 2:20; ano ba ang authority mo nang sabihin mo na mali ang Efe. 2:20?

sagot Mr paisones wag kang maglalagay ng mga salitang di ko sinabi o sinulat makakasuhan ka nang libelo..saan ko sinabi na mali ang nakasulat sa efeso 2:20?ipakita mo nga? kung di mo maipakita Juan 8:44 ka…hihintayin ko ..

G-one:

Henry Arganda kung kakasuhan mo ako, maraming-maraming salamat sa iyo. At alam moba kung ano ang kasong libelo? Bro Henry, wagkang magmarunong, ika nga sa Cebuano: “Ayaw pagpatoo-too”; kasi hindi mo nga alam ang kasong libelo. Granting without admitting na pinaparatangan kita at hindi mo talaga sinulat (implicit & explicit) na mali ang naka sulat sa Efe. 2:20; then mag tanung ka sa abogado kung makakasuhan ba ako ng libelo… Assignment mo yan ha…..

Nang sabihin natin ni henry na: “Sabi mo na mali ang naka sulat sa Efe. 2:20; ano ba ang authority mo nang sabihin mo na mali ang Efe. 2:20?” –ito’y dahil sa kanyang sinulat (comment) sa amin, samakatuwid ang aking katanungan sa itaas ay basi narin sa kanyang komento sa amin; narito ang kanyang komento:

“o sige gamitin natin yung ginagamit nyo sa efeso..2:20..diba ginagamit nyo ito para patunayan na ang pundasyun ay apostol eh mali pa rin kayo ipalagay na natin na maga apostol ang pundasyun sa hindi paggamit ng ibang verse sa biglang basa ika nga mali pa rin kayo kasi sabi nyo si pedro lang ang pundasyun eh d2 mga apostol at mga propeta eh di marami nakuuu bakit paborito nyo si pedro lang mahina pundasyun nyo sa tao lang”

Malinaw na nakasaad sa Efe. 2:20 “…apostles and prophets for its foundations, and Christ Jesus himself for its main cornerstone.” Peru ang sabi ni Henry ay: “…efeso..2:20..diba ginagamit nyo ito para patunayan na ang pundasyun ay apostol eh mali pa rin kayo ipalagay na natin na maga apostol ang pundasyun sa hindi paggamit ng ibang verse sa biglang basa…” Malinaw na sinabi ni Henry na mali raw na “pundasyun ay apostol” peru nang binasa natin ang Efe. 2:20 nakasaad roon na “…apostles and prophets for its foundations, and Christ Jesus himself for its main cornerstone.” Kaya naitanong natin kay Henry na: ano ba ang authority mo nang sabihin mo na mali ang Efe. 2:20?

Henry:

G-one At mali daw ang nakasulat sa Efe. 2:20 na ang mga Apostol ay pundation ng Iglesia. Nako itong si Mr. Arganda kahit mababasa na eh gilubag parin. Hindi po mali ang Efe. 2:20 ang mali po ay si Mr. Arganda.

Sagot paisones,hindi ko sinabi na mali ang efeso 2:20 -ang mali yang unawa mo,basahin mo pinutol mo na naman..nawala ang mga propeta,.ang nilagay mo ay ang mga apostol ay pundation ng iglesia…tingnan mo nga ang epeso 2:20 kung yan ang nakalagay?binago na naman parang si satanas ka gumamit ng talata…

G-one:

Hindi sinabi (explicitly) ni Henry na mali ang efeso 2:20 peru maiintindihan at mababasa (implicit) na sinabi niya na mali ang efeso 2:20 dahil sinabi niya na mali raw na “pundasyun ay apostol” peru nang binasa natin ang Efe. 2:20 nakasaad roon na “…apostles and prophets for its foundations, and Christ Jesus himself for its main cornerstone.” Kaya naitanong natin kay Henry na: ano ba ang authority mo nang sabihin mo na mali ang Efe. 2:20?

Dagdag pa ni Henry Arganda na mali daw ang unawa ko sa Efe. 2:20. Mga kapatid kayo na ang mag husga kung sino ang may maling pang-uunawa sa amin dalawa ni Henry Arganda (4th Watch PMCC) at sa akin (G-one Paisones –Catholic Faith Defender)

Makapagbigay kaba ng Bible scholar na nagsasabing hindi foundation ang apostol sa Efe. 2:20? Pangalawang assignment mo na yan ha….

Sa rules ng argumentation kailang dapat nakatoon sa subject ang proposition ng Debator. Kaya paminsan minsan hindi na natin isinasali sa pagsulat ang “profeta” sa Efe. 2:20 para malinawan ang bumabasa, makuha nila ang punto natin (particularly sa pinag-uusapang topiko) at malaman nila ang katotohan.

Ang sumusunod ay ang mga Argumento:

Henry Arganda: (4th Watch PMCC) – Sa Efe. 2:20 “Hindi foundation ang mga Apostolis” – (Ito po ay implicit basi narin sa mga comento ni Henry Arganda)

G-one Paisones (Catholic Faith Defender) – Sa Efe. 2:20 “Ang mga Apostolis ay foundation”

Kaya minsan hindi na natin naisama ang profeta sa mga argumento ko laban kay Henry.

Sumatotal hindi ko binago ang Biblia; alam ng bumabasa na hindi natin binago Efe. 2:20 dahil sa nasambit na natin sa itaas na ang mga apostol, mga porfeta at si Cristo (main corner stone) mismo ang foundation ng iglesia. Peru paminsan-minsan hindi na natin isinusulat ang mga profeta para maka-focust ang bumabasa sa topiko na pinag-dedebatihan.

Henry:

G-one question-Sang-ayon kaba sa sinasabi ko na ang tunay na iglesia ay sasamahan ni Cristo araw-araw hanggang sa kataposan ng mundo?

oo sang ayun ako kami yun, hindi kayo yun.

G-one:

Check Mate!

Salamat sa pag sagot mo sa tanong ko. Peru napansin kong hindi mo sinagutan lahat ng tanong ko. Peru OK lang baka busy ka. Kung may Oras ka paki sagot naman ng mga tanong ko…. salamat…

Dahil sang-ayon ka na ang tunay na iglesia ay sasamahan ni Cristo araw-araw hanggang sa kataposan ng mundo at sinabi mong hindi kayo (Catholic Church) yun; ang follow-up question ko sa iyo Henry Arganda (At pakisunod narin ng mga iba kong tanong) itong iglesia na ito; ito ba ay ang 4th Watch PMCC?

Maraming salamat sa mga replies mo sa akin.

Regards.

3 Responses to “Reply from Henry Arganda (Member PMCC 4thwatch) #3”

  1. aljon said

    TAGILID SI MR. ARGANDA.

  2. dhugz said

    Salamat at may ganitong site para maipahatid ang stand ng Totoong Iglesia ni Cristo ang Holy Apostolic Roman Church. . . . . .At ang totoo 66books lang ang Bibliya ng mga against sa Catholic, at Siguro 6 din ang numero ng church nila. . .

  3. catholicfaithdefender said

    Bro,

    Salamat sa mga commento mo….. ang mga commento mo ay isa sa nagbibigay lakas at sigla para ihatatid namin sa buong mondo ang Lahat ng Katotohanan….

    Bro, natatawa ako sa idea mo hingil sa 66books nila….. baka nga bro sila ang 666 dahil 6 ang kanilang church eh….

    salamat sa info bro…

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